Ann Atkinson, the former executive director of the T. W. Lewis Center for Personal Development at Barrett, the Honors College at Arizona State University (ASU), joined the Grand Canyon Times podcast to discuss her firing from ASU and the battle for freedom of speech at the university.
Atkinson is also an entrepreneur, healthcare real estate investor, educator, former public company executive, wife, mother, and triathlete.
Available on: Apple Podcasts and Spotify
Introduction:
- Leyla Gulen introduces Ann Atkinson as an entrepreneur, educator, and former executive director of the T. W. Lewis Center for Personal Development at Barrett, the Honors College at Arizona State University.
- Atkinson said she was fired from her position at ASU after she organized a “Health, Wealth and Happiness” event this past February. The event featured a number of conservative speakers, including talk show hosts Dennis Prager and Charlie Kirk, and financial author Robert Kioysaki.
- Atkinson said that after the speakers were announced, 39 of 47 Barrett sent a letter to the dean condemning the event as promoting “white supremacy” and discouraged students from attending.
- Tom Lewis, a significant donor to the university and the namesake of the T. W. Lewis Center, was supportive of the event and its speakers.
- Following the event and the backlash, Tom Lewis decided to cancel his funding agreement with the university due to disappointment with the faculty's response and the new dean's leadership.
- Ann reflects on her time at ASU and her reasons for choosing the university for her degree.
Full, unedited transcript of podcast episode -- Ann Atkinson on the Grand Canyon Times Podcast (October 4, 2023):
[00:00:00] Leyla Gulen: Welcome to the Grand Canyon Times Podcast. I'm your host, Layla Gulen. In this episode, we welcome our guest, Anne Atkinson. Anne is an entrepreneur, educator, wife, mother, triathlete, and free speech advocate. She's the former executive director of the T. W. Lewis Center for Personal Development at Barrett, the Honors College at Arizona State University.
[00:00:26] Leyla Gulen: A position she held for a little more than two years before she was fired in June for what she claims was the price she paid for standing up for free speech. And
[00:00:37] Ann Atkinson: welcome. Thank you, Layla. It's an honor to be with you here today. You
[00:00:41] Leyla Gulen: I should also mention are also an ASU alum, and we'll talk a little bit about that.
[00:00:47] Leyla Gulen: In a bit, but first I wanted to jump off here, health, wealth, and happiness. I think three things that most people strive for in life. It's also the title of an event that you held in February at the university. [00:01:00] And you invited three well known guests that ultimately drew ire from your fellow colleagues.
[00:01:06] Leyla Gulen: Can you explain what happened?
[00:01:08] Ann Atkinson: Absolutely. So for the last two years, I've run the T. W. Lewis Center for Personal Development at my alma mater, which is ASU's Barrett Honors College. And the Lewis Center hosted speaker programs as part of its core mission. In February of last year, we hosted a speaker program titled Health, Wealth, and Happiness.
[00:01:29] Ann Atkinson: That led to a national condemnation campaign from a majority of the faculty in the college censorship by the deans and complicity by the University leadership if I start back at the beginning the Lewis Center was designed in partnership by Barrett the Honors College the ASU foundation and an outside donor TW Lewis to better prepare these honors students for the challenges and opportunities of life for the real world And I think a lot of us recognize shortcomings in higher education [00:02:00] when it comes to preparing these students for the real world.
[00:02:03] Ann Atkinson: So the Lewis Center's donor intent. Which was designed by those three parties was to prepare students for the real world by teaching things like entrepreneurship, self awareness, career success, personal finance, happiness. Notice these are all topics directly in line with health, wealth, and happiness in a secondary mission of the Lewis Center was to teach the traditional American values of personal responsibility, hard work, civic duty, And that's what we're Faith, family and community service.
[00:02:33] Ann Atkinson: So the event you're asking about was simply a speaker program run by the Lewis Center that was part of. This, the Center's core mission and our event was free to students and available to the public. And
[00:02:47] Leyla Gulen: let's talk a little bit about T. W. Lewis, Tom Lewis. Who is Tom
[00:02:52] Ann Atkinson: Lewis? Well, Tom Lewis and his wife Jan Lewis are pillars in the community in Arizona and [00:03:00] really beyond Arizona.
[00:03:01] Ann Atkinson: But they started as a home building company. So they, Tom ran the T. W. Lewis. Um, and I'm going to talk a little bit about this company, which was a, one of the most successful homebuilders here in the state of Arizona, and years ago, they sold that company, and they've really dedicated their lives to philanthropy and most of these issues that they focused on have been about education, or civic society.
[00:03:24] Ann Atkinson: And a lot of conservative different institutions, but they've really been incredibly generous with their treasure that they work so hard to build. And they're looking to feed, to give back to those organizations that are making a difference in areas that align with their passions. But Tom and Jan Lewis are remarkably good people that have worked hard to build their good names and have really made a difference, not just in Arizona, but really nationwide.
[00:03:49] Leyla Gulen: And they are currently ensconced in two other universities, one being, uh, Kentucky University and also University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Is that
[00:03:59] Ann Atkinson: correct? [00:04:00] That's right. So those two universities and then also Arizona State have been the recipients of what Tom Lewis recently said was about 30 million over the past couple of decades.
[00:04:10] Ann Atkinson: So they've, they have given very generously to those three colleges. They've started an honors college at the University of Kentucky that was designed after ASU's Barrett Honors College. They have given generously to scholarships, to centers, and, and in many different ways to, to these three universities.
[00:04:30] Leyla Gulen: Now on, obviously, it was well known the philosophy and the mission behind donating all of this money by the Louis's to these institutions. And in order to get your name put on a building, it was clear what. They endeavor to achieve by their, through their philanthropy. So, so there's never an issue up until this point, as far as I'm hearing.
[00:04:54] Leyla Gulen: Yeah,
[00:04:54] Ann Atkinson: I think in a donor world, you have for large gifts, you typically have a grant agreement and the [00:05:00] grant agreement lays out the intent of the donor. So yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, whether there is a scholarship endowment or a center that's funded or a building that gets a name on it, right? The donors are typically looking to have their gift aligned with their intent and a public university like Arizona State is such a big place.
[00:05:18] Ann Atkinson: They have all sorts of different donors with different intents and they, they work hard to really establish a way to honor the legacy of that donor. That aligns with the donor's wishes, that fits into a part of the university that welcomes those wishes.
[00:05:34] Leyla Gulen: And let's go back to the event, Health, Wealth, and Happiness.
[00:05:37] Leyla Gulen: So Tom Lewis was there and he said several words and introduced the guests to come up on stage, which included conservative talk show host Dennis Prager. Uh, personal finance guru, Robert Kiyosaki, Charlie Kirk, another voice in the conservative movement, and a doctor. So you had the, this panel up on stage and they [00:06:00] said their piece.
[00:06:01] Leyla Gulen: So Tom was fully behind everybody that showed up that evening that was there to address the students. And let's talk about the time leading up to that event. So sounds like it was a pretty full house or a lot of students in attendance that were happy to come to this event. But there was something else that led up to this event before it was
[00:06:23] Ann Atkinson: ever even held.
[00:06:25] Ann Atkinson: That's right. Yeah. Tom, as the executive director of the Lewis Center, my job was to select our speakers and I did that. I mean, I, I, it was a dream of mine to bring Dennis Prager to campus. And when I was talking with Robert Kiyosaki a year prior, I said, look, it'd be a dream to bring you and to bring Dennis Prager to ASU.
[00:06:45] Ann Atkinson: Would you do that? And I know. Kiyosaki and Prager know each other, and Kiyosaki said yes, and he proposed this concept, health, wealth, and happiness, with also with Dr. Radha Gopalan, who was a past Lewis Center speaker, who's a, [00:07:00] an incredible heart transplant cardiologist that really Practices both Eastern and Western medicine.
[00:07:06] Ann Atkinson: And so we put together this idea of health, wealth, and happiness. And, you know, Tom Lewis loved the idea. He was always so supportive of things I wanted to do. And he said, Hey, we should invite Charlie Kirk. And I thought that we can find a place to fit in. There are a lot of turning point students at ASU, and although Charlie had just written a very controversial book called The College Scam, and I had some concerns about the timing of that book coming out, but look, they, he offered fantastic insights, and, uh, as did all of our three panelists, and Tom Lewis did as well, so, once this program was announced, the faculty of my college, which, Barrett, the Honors College, which serves about 7, 000 ASU students, the Honors College faculty Went into attack mode.
[00:07:52] Ann Atkinson: They didn't like the views of of these speakers, particularly Dennis Prager Charlie Kirk and to a lesser extent [00:08:00] Robert Kiyosaki And so instead of just expressing their views to their Dean they they put together a petition they sent it across the university to colleagues to other faculty members saying we are mobilizing in protest Dennis Prager and Charlie Kirk are Purveyors of hate.
[00:08:18] Ann Atkinson: They are threats to our democracy. They're anti trans, anti women, and a litany of other libelous accusations. And then the faculty went into their classrooms with this campaign. They told students that our event was a white supremacy event. And in some instances, the faculty members at Barrett, the honors college told their students, do not attend because this is an event for white supremacists.
[00:08:43] Ann Atkinson: Meaning to these students that if we see you there, we know. Telling the students that this is an event to be attended by white supremacists. So it was really intimidation in the classroom.
[00:08:54] Leyla Gulen: That's an incredibly incendiary label to put on those [00:09:00] speakers. So, so what was the, was there any blowback to that?
[00:09:04] Leyla Gulen: Would, how did the students take it? And when you heard this Rippling through campus, was there ever a conversation that you had with your campus colleagues, with the dean, with the president of the university
[00:09:16] Ann Atkinson: even? Absolutely, all of the above. The faculty never came to me directly. Of course, they wouldn't express these concerns directly to the person hosting the event.
[00:09:26] Ann Atkinson: They did all these other things and I've never met the majority of the faculty and not one of them came to me with their concerns. Um, I thought for sure that, look, the deans of my college would step in, they would tell the faculty, if you don't like this, that's fine, we'll support your own different event.
[00:09:42] Ann Atkinson: But instead, the dean censored speech and ASU has since admitted the Barrett deans pulled down our digital marketing all across the Barrett Honors Complex where the students live because it was offending the faculty. They censored us. So, instead of the Dean stepping in and [00:10:00] telling the faculty, look, we acknowledge your feelings in this and you're entitled to have viewpoints, the, the Dean censored us.
[00:10:07] Ann Atkinson: And then further, the Deans told me that these speakers were not allowed to talk about higher education. They could only talk about health, wealth, and happiness. They could not talk about anything that may be deemed as political or used as a political platform that may alienate the audience. And so. ASU is a public university, and we shouldn't be restricting speakers.
[00:10:29] Ann Atkinson: That is censorship. That's something you would see in Maoist China. That's not something you would see in the American university. But indeed we censored them. So the deans told me what they could and could not say. They took down marketing and I couldn't believe it. So I, I raised issues in different levels with that throughout the university, including HR, there are various resources offices.
[00:10:53] Ann Atkinson: And finally, I went all the way up to the president of the university. But the bottom line is. And there's a whole nother part of our [00:11:00] conversation that starts when I took this to the ASU's President Crow. The bottom line is the university did nothing. They allowed the voicing of ideas that are against a prevailing orthodoxy to be met with condemnation, censorship, chilling, and even harassment.
[00:11:17] Ann Atkinson: What about all the students that might want to explore these ideas of health, wealth, and happiness? Or what about students that might want to hear from a speaker that's more controversial than Religious Jew Dennis Prager. What about them? These people can't speak out. And when they do, nothing happens to, about the grievance since they're erring, and then they're met with retaliation, like I have seen and like others have seen that have stepped out as well.
[00:11:45] Leyla Gulen: I have so many questions. I mean, okay, so you invite a speaker to come to a college campus and not address higher education? And what is incendiary about talking about higher education? What's the fear there? [00:12:00]
[00:12:00] Ann Atkinson: Well, the Barrett Dean Tara Williams told me, That's the whole reason we exist. Like, a speaker can't, can't come and criticize something that's the whole reason for why we all exist here.
[00:12:14] Ann Atkinson: She blocked criticism. She blocked criticism, or she tried to. Now, I didn't tell the speakers what they could or could not say. That's against my moral code, and, but the dean sure tried to get me to do that. The deans worked with the ASU Dean of Students Office to breach security protocol to have two representatives from the ASU Dean of Students Office to break our security access backstage when we had DEF CON 5 level security because Dennis Prager received a legitimate death threat and ASU breached security to send two people Standing in the dark right beside me as I delivered my opening remarks in an attempt to intimidate me.
[00:12:52] Ann Atkinson: To what? To to warn the audience. The warning that the, the Barrett deans told me to, to, uh, to issue it during my opening [00:13:00] remarks so that they did nothing. They really did nothing.
[00:13:03] Leyla Gulen: And you can't see that in the video. It's very dark. So you're saying that you had someone in
[00:13:07] the
[00:13:08] Ann Atkinson: wing? I had two people who, when they were asked how they got backstage and who they were, because I was the only person authorized to allow people backstage access that evening, and they said, we're here from the Dean of Students office.
[00:13:22] Ann Atkinson: We are just here for Anne's opening remarks and they stood directly to the right of the lectern where I delivered my remarks out of view of the audience and just watched me the whole time. Did you feel lasers burning a hole in your head? I did. It was so odd. I mean, I was, look, I was focused on delivering a positive event.
[00:13:42] Ann Atkinson: I didn't make eye contact with them. I was going to deliver my remarks and deliver really great content for the audience. It was in the spirit of the Lewis Center. But they had a presence and they let that be known.
[00:13:54] Leyla Gulen: Now when you hold an event on a college campus, who's the event typically [00:14:00] for? Is it for the student or is it for the faculty?
[00:14:03] Ann Atkinson: Well, ASU is a public university, so it has an obligation to serve the community. I would answer most of the Lewis Center events were just for students, but this is one we wanted to open up to the public. So we still made it free for students, and really we were hoping for a lot of students in the audience.
[00:14:20] Ann Atkinson: And As a result, and we had over almost 1500 people that attended most of them were from the general public. And that's because I think unfortunately the faculty were effective in their condemnation campaign and they they caused the students to fear this event and not show up. I had students tell me.
[00:14:40] Ann Atkinson: And I can only attend this event if you promise I won't be shown in any pictures. I can't have my professor see that I was here. I can't be seen associated with this event because it's being cast as a white supremacist event. So, the, the audience was primarily the people from the general public. Did any of this get back to Tom Lewis?[00:15:00]
[00:15:00] Ann Atkinson: Yes. He is very well aware of, I would say, all of this.
[00:15:05] Leyla Gulen: Well, I'm saying before the event even took place, was he aware of the petition?
[00:15:10] Ann Atkinson: Yeah. Tom was aware and he was monitoring. Just what was happening. He wasn't speaking out, but he was just paying attention to what was happening. And as he said, he was in outright shock with just the level of hostility from the activist faculty.
[00:15:25] Ann Atkinson: It's one thing if they had opinions, but it's another thing. to go on the attack to try to do everything but explicitly say they wanted to shut down our event. Now they veiled our event in the veil of white supremacy, which is a really awful thing. So they did about everything they could without perhaps crossing that line.
[00:15:44] Ann Atkinson: Maybe they did, somewhere that I didn't see, but Tom was aware of their behavior. And I think he was most disappointed that the new Barrett Dean, who was only new, she was only there for less than a year, she did nothing. And she showed. [00:16:00] Her leadership is that of an empty suit. And when you have a lack of real strong leadership, the activists take over, especially in education.
[00:16:09] Ann Atkinson: And she let what I'm calling the faculty mob, those 39 of the 47 faculty members assume control of Barrett, the honors college, which is a jewel at Barrett. So. I think Tom was just incredibly disappointed under the leadership of Barrett's last dean, Mark Jacobs, this never would have happened because he was a strong leader.
[00:16:31] Ann Atkinson: He was respected by the faculty, but this new dean needs to go.
[00:16:36] Leyla Gulen: Now the event took place, it was nearly a two hour long event. It appeared that it ended successfully. Was there anything, any content within the discussion that raised eyebrows or that created further? ire from those same campus colleagues who signed the petition?
[00:16:56] Ann Atkinson: No, in fact, we had a very large showing [00:17:00] of media. I made tickets complimentary for any and all media, and there was no story the next day because truly, our event was an event about health, wealth, and happiness. Charlie Kirk talked about how he enjoys the Sabbath one day per week. He talked about honoring your mother and father.
[00:17:17] Ann Atkinson: He talked about when it comes to happiness, if you are unhappy, your first step should be to look in the mirror, right? Those bits of information might be controversial to some, but there, there was no story because this was what it was always intended to be, which was a positive event on health, wealth, and happiness.
[00:17:35] Ann Atkinson: Sure. You had two mainstream conservative leaders there. Sure. You had Robert Kiyosaki who teaches about capitalism. But there was no story. The faculty, they lost their momentum once the event actually happened because it was none of the things that they said it would be. All
[00:17:52] Leyla Gulen: right. So, so the curtain came down on that event.
[00:17:55] Leyla Gulen: And that was back in February. Let's talk about the next four [00:18:00] months. So, what happened right after that event that led to the middle
[00:18:07] Ann Atkinson: of June? Well, after that event, and really starting once it was announced, everything changed at Barrett. The, I received harassment from faculty members threatening to write a media hit piece focused on me and my career because they didn't like The ideas of the speakers I invited to that event, the, the number of nitpicking meetings.
[00:18:28] Ann Atkinson: I had a big meeting with probably eight people where I was informed that the Lewis Hunter was no longer allowed to use the trash cans for our trash at our events. And I had people taking pictures of trash cans after our event, which in trying to report us in the amount of backlash, it was really just nitpicky and subtle, was glaring after this event.
[00:18:50] Ann Atkinson: But externally, Tom Lewis decided he has an incredible treasure to give, and he wants to give [00:19:00] treasure to places and to people that he feels confident can fulfill his intent. And although he was extremely happy with the job I was doing, with our staff, with our speaker programs, with our workshops, a part of the Lewis Center that always gave him consternation were the courses led by faculty.
[00:19:18] Ann Atkinson: Right. One of the faculty members said when I started at the Lewis Center that she teaches the opposite of our donor intent in her classes, which she has the academic freedom to do, but she's gladly accepting Tom Lewis's money to teach. So the faculty were. Um, never really in doing a job that Tom was happy with.
[00:19:40] Ann Atkinson: And he doesn't have any say in what happens in their classrooms, but he's paying them and he would hope that they wouldn't mock and undermine and teach the opposite of the intent of our Lewis Center. So Tom made the decision, even though he liked a lot of the parts of the Lewis Center, he couldn't in good faith have any confidence in Barrett's new Dean Tara Williams and didn't [00:20:00] have confidence in the faculty.
[00:20:01] Ann Atkinson: So he canceled his agreement. And when he canceled his agreement, ASU didn't even give him a phone call. They didn't say thank you. They didn't call to see if they can change his mind. He didn't receive communication other than one dear John letter from the foundation that said, we're sorry, you're disappointed.
[00:20:20] Ann Atkinson: And then obviously he and I do communicate. The Barrett Dean never even called him and he has given millions of dollars. So his decision, um, was. Reaffirmed after the fact as really being the right move for him.
[00:20:33] Leyla Gulen: No good deed goes unpunished, I guess, the, uh, to the tune of millions and millions of dollars and millions more that could have benefited students in the future.
[00:20:45] Leyla Gulen: So I'm sure that was not a decision that he came to lightly, especially when you've made that commitment. What, what has he said to that effect and what, what has he said since pulling his funding and parting ways with ASU?
[00:20:58] Ann Atkinson: Well, he has said [00:21:00] publicly. That he was shocked at the outright hostility exhibited by the faculty members at there at the Honors College, and he's blown away by the, the way the new dean just lacks leadership and presence.
[00:21:13] Ann Atkinson: I mean, she's, she should be teaching classes and writing about it. She writes books about fairies and mid century, the invention of womanhood, and she should be doing that, but not leading a very complicated college, which is the gem of the largest university in the country. So he's been very clear on that.
[00:21:34] Ann Atkinson: He's not minced words. And Tom Lewis has spoken out about these issues at ASU, and ASU has, a lot has happened since this program. And since he canceled his funding. And ASU doesn't budge. They don't back down. They don't admit when they have work to do to improve, even though they owe that to the students.
[00:21:53] Ann Atkinson: Yeah. And the
[00:21:54] Leyla Gulen: students, though, let's talk about the time that you chose to get your [00:22:00] degree from ASU. So, so why did you choose ASU, first of all, to get your degree?
[00:22:05] Ann Atkinson: Oh, well, I'm from a small town in Iowa, and I love Arizona. It's home for me. I vacationed here in the 90s, and I just, I love it. I think people move here because they want to be here.
[00:22:17] Ann Atkinson: I love the sunshine, and I just knew this is where I wanted to be, and I got a degree in finance, ASU has had and still has a great business school, the W. P. Carey School of Business. And I was also a Barrett Honors student and saw the opportunity to work a little bit harder to do a little bit more and to set my higher education experience at ASU apart.
[00:22:39] Leyla Gulen: So this was kind of a full circle time for you these last couple of years. That must have been incredibly disappointing to see how things Ended up
[00:22:48] Ann Atkinson: panning. The most disappointing part of it, then the part no one is talking about, is the student experience. These students that attended Lewis Center programs had a community, and it was the Lewis [00:23:00] Center community.
[00:23:00] Ann Atkinson: The Lewis Center, we put on nearly 150 programs over two years. We had speaker programs. Most Monday and Wednesday nights we would have Um, workshops in person on Friday, we'd have virtual offerings. We were on all the campuses. We put on an incredible amount of programming and we brought in all sorts of different speakers from professional athletes to entrepreneurs to philanthropists.
[00:23:24] Ann Atkinson: I mean just the gamut to from healthcare professionals to AI experts and engineers. So the And we built this community, and the students were brought together with other like minded students that really wanted to prepare for the real world, who wanted to develop their own professional networks, who wanted to learn about these real people, how they've overcome adversity in their careers, and overnight, that's gone.
[00:23:49] Ann Atkinson: The student's experience is gone. And ASU says, look, Ann Atkinson lost her job because the donor pulled funding. It was a grant funded position. Well, the [00:24:00] faculty that did not lose their jobs were also grant funded with the same donor agreement, but the Barrett Dean in advance of my firing, move them to a different contract so that.
[00:24:10] Ann Atkinson: they were no longer grant funded. ASU doesn't say that I brought in new diversified donors excited to continue the work of the Lewis Center, but the Barrett Dean wouldn't even have the conversation. ASU doesn't say that the provost, Nancy Gonzalez, told me we allowed the speaker, but you have to then take the consequences.
[00:24:30] Ann Atkinson: When I asked about the Lewis Center, when I thought we would move the Lewis Center outside of Barrett, no one's talking about the students and art. All in higher education, really only there for the students?
[00:24:41] Leyla Gulen: Well, that, and that goes back to my original question is when you have these events, and I understand things are open to the public and it's a public university, but When a lot of these events are taking place on campus, who is it to benefit?
[00:24:54] Leyla Gulen: Is it to benefit the faculty or is it to benefit the student? And I, I thought a [00:25:00] college was there to benefit the student and the student can make the decision what and where they decide to get their information, to enrich themselves with information or experiences.
[00:25:14] Ann Atkinson: Exactly. Exactly. But now what we have...
[00:25:17] Ann Atkinson: Faculty members, not all of them, but it sure seems like a majority these days, 39 of the 47 at Barrett. Who have appointed themselves the arbiters of speech, and they've genuinely think that speech they don't like is harmful and dangerous, especially to underrepresented groups to marginalized groups, right?
[00:25:37] Ann Atkinson: I think they're initially in this movement that we've seen on college campuses was some attachment to a good to a love. But now these people are
[00:25:57] Ann Atkinson: And so we should be here to your [00:26:00] point, letting the students decide what do they want to attend? What type of speaker programs, what ideas do they want to explore? But instead, these self appointed arbiters of speech are stepping in. And trying to tell the student what is good, what is bad, what is acceptable, what should be unacceptable speech.
[00:26:17] Ann Atkinson: And a lot of these students in this generation, they're the most compassionate students. They're thinking about others and others feelings. They're accepting. They're loving. They don't want to be.
[00:26:31] Ann Atkinson: And so when these ideas or professors are telling them are dangerous. So they self censor. So we have as a result of what we should have our students exploring all these different ideas and then coming to their own conclusions. But what we have As a result, we have a, an environment of self censorship that is rampant.
[00:26:50] Leyla Gulen: You've since been a guest on Dennis, Charlie, and Robert's podcast. They all have podcasts and other radio shows. So I would [00:27:00] love to know what those personal conversations have been like since all of this has taken place, since all of this has unfolded. And I, I listened to your interview with Dennis Prager.
[00:27:11] Leyla Gulen: He was in shock to see his name on the Wall Street Journal column. I think, I'm sure they must have an opinion and have some level of fear for the future that this could become the new normal.
[00:27:26] Ann Atkinson: They, I think they've been a few steps ahead of me in this. I have held out hope that my university would step in and do the right thing.
[00:27:34] Ann Atkinson: That they would say the intimidation of students in the classroom is never acceptable and they would do the right thing. I think Dennis Prager, Robert Kiyosaki, Charlie Kirk, they've been doing this long enough. They know the university's not going to budge. The university will weather the storm. They'll take what they think are arrows and wait for the news cycle to change.
[00:27:54] Ann Atkinson: And I, here, I thought that ASU's President Michael Crow was one of the [00:28:00] most pro free speech presidents in the nation. I even said that publicly multiple times, and what I've seen is that he's doing nothing. He's gone. He's done nothing except defend the faculty. So Dennis, Charlie, Robert, I don't, I wouldn't say they're surprised by this, but they understand the need for people to wake up.
[00:28:18] Ann Atkinson: The need for people to really see what's happening is, I'm one example. The Lewis Center is one example. The community of students at the Lewis Center is another example, but this is happening on a much, much greater scale. So they've seen it, they saw, I lost my job over this, Lynn Blake, who was the, the events operations manager at ASU Gammage Auditorium, who Helped us put on this event.
[00:28:42] Ann Atkinson: She really ran it on behalf of the venue. She was also fired. So Charlie and Dennis and Robert, they know this is just what happens in higher ed today and it's not going to change until people really wake up at scale. So I'm appreciative to you and to them and to all the different folks who [00:29:00] stepped in here just to shine a light on the truth.
[00:29:02] Ann Atkinson: That's all we are doing and we have to keep doing more.
[00:29:06] Leyla Gulen: But you endeavored to keep this thing going. To keep the TW Lewis.
[00:29:12] Leyla Gulen: They said no, they never really gave a reason why, but they did say that they offered to keep you on its staff, but you declined. Is that true?
[00:29:23] Ann Atkinson: No ASU. So the Provost, Nancy Gonzalez told me I would be welcome to apply to other positions at ASU and their dean, Tara Williams said no. So you apply. I had to get in line.
[00:29:36] Ann Atkinson: And for those listeners here, you probably all know, if you speak out against when you work at ASU, you are blacklisted. I will never be welcome back at ASU. And they'll never tell me a reason that's a truthful reason. They'll just come up with something. But no, I'm not welcome back at ASU. The Dean of Barrett offered to give me a letter of recommendation.
[00:29:57] Ann Atkinson: During my firing meeting, but I don't know that she would still [00:30:00] honor that today since I've been working to shine a light on the truth publicly.
[00:30:04] Leyla Gulen: What was your, in a nutshell, I don't expect you to give us verbatim, but when you sat down for that, Dreadful last meeting. What did you say? Do you remember what you said in response to their
[00:30:18] Ann Atkinson: hiring you?
[00:30:19] Ann Atkinson: Well, the Barrett Dean, now look, Tom Lewis canceled his donor agreement. I brought in new donor funding. I told the Dean, New donor funding is contingent upon maintaining the intent of the Lewis Hunter word for word. And from the first part of our conversation here, those words include things like traditional American values.
[00:30:39] Ann Atkinson: Hard work, personal responsibility, words that are really heterodox on campus, which are important, right? It's important to have those, but she never entertained the conversation. I proposed different structures of how we could fund, how much funding. She never was interested in the conversation. She never said, talk to the foundation.
[00:30:57] Ann Atkinson: She just shut it down. So, in my [00:31:00] firing conversation, when Dean Tara Williams told me, Uh, we understand how disappointed you must be, but this is strictly a fiscal decision. I said, this is not a fiscal decision. I've already told you about new donor funding. You are choosing this path because the ideas I represent are ideas that are not welcome at Barrett, the Honors College.
[00:31:23] Ann Atkinson: And her reaction? Well, she, I know I, I use the word empty suit and I don't use that wording lightly. She didn't say anything that just said, this is just a fiscal decision and she's, it was a nothing burger. She said just nothing substantive back, but holding the company line.
[00:31:40] Leyla Gulen: Now there've been a couple of things that have taken place since the June timeline.
[00:31:45] Leyla Gulen: Can you tell us what the latest is and what is to come in the next few months?
[00:31:51] Ann Atkinson: Yeah. So as a result, So after that firing meeting, she gave me 30 days notice that I would be, my position would be [00:32:00] eliminated. So I decided, I'm going to reach out to the president of the university, and I've been raising all these concerns internally, but it's not going anywhere, so I sent ASU president Michael Crow a long, probably nine page document outlining the issues there, the way The faculty ran a national condemnation campaign, the way the dean censored speech, the way I had to defend in a meeting with my deans.
[00:32:24] Ann Atkinson: A comparison between our event and the KKK rally. So I sent all this directly to ASU President Crow. He responded to say, speakers speak at ASU. And then he deferred me to meet with my dean, who most of my complaints were about. And then also the provost ASU, Nancy Gonzalez. So I met with the provost. This is an early June before my Wall Street Journal op ed.
[00:32:49] Ann Atkinson: And I thought, as a result of this meeting, we would move the Lewis Center outside of Barrett. I thought she would see how ridiculous these things were and step in and take action. But instead, she just [00:33:00] defended the university. And although I think she's a pleasant person, she told me that I had to take the consequences.
[00:33:06] Ann Atkinson: They allowed the speaker, but I had to then take the consequences. And when I... Told her how everything changed at Barrett when this new dean joined. She said, well, the thing that changed at Barrett is that a very controversial speaker was invited. So the environment of toxicity and retaliation was something that was my fault, not the result of a new dean who lacks leadership.
[00:33:26] Ann Atkinson: So after that meeting, I realized that there are no other options. I decided to post publicly and the Wall Street Journal ran my op ed in early June. I followed it with a longer op ed in the National Review. And the Arizona State Legislature. Read that information and they're tired of this too. So they stepped in they held they put together an ad hoc committee So between the Arizona State House and Senate the ad hoc committee on freedom of expression in Arizona's public universities We had a hearing to investigate what I have been bringing up [00:34:00] they investigated and and had ASU testify and ASU just flat out denied.
[00:34:05] Ann Atkinson: They denied that anything happened. They said, we have a great record of free speech. And ASU, with its team of about 15 people that showed up, its lawyers, media, PR, government relations, embarrassed itself, and flat out denied what happened. So, the legislature told ASU they had to investigate, and by law, ASU has 60 days, and they are able to investigate themselves.
[00:34:30] Ann Atkinson: So, The legislature just received ASU's report back, and as you might expect, ASU's investigation of itself found No wrongdoings. So here we are. We're recording in late September in mid October There will be a second hearing by the same committee and they will investigate the actual evidence They will see and they will allow the public to see the actual evidence not ASU's claim of no wrongdoing So this is not over [00:35:00] And ASU has, in this whole process, just continued to deny, they have called me an emotional woman publicly, they've said I'm wrong, they have We've gone to really great lengths to deny things, and the truth will prevail, and some pieces it already has, but a lot is happening.
[00:35:19] Ann Atkinson: There's a lot more to come.
[00:35:21] Leyla Gulen: And how can people help? People are listening to this, and their blood is boiling, and they're upset. How can
[00:35:28] Ann Atkinson: they help you? Well, we have to understand the university will not hold itself accountable. This must require external pressure. So letters to the president, letters to faculty members, they are not going to change.
[00:35:43] Ann Atkinson: There is no volume or there's no volume of letters or emails they could receive that will change their mind. This requires the public to be aware and the legislature to act. So I really, I ask your listeners, share this story. People need [00:36:00] to know you can Google health, wealth, happiness, ASU. There've been a hundred articles on it.
[00:36:04] Ann Atkinson: Um, people need to know what's happening, they need to be aware of how ASU is bullying people that dissent from within. Multiple people lost their jobs about this one program. Other faculty have stepped forward that are going through a similar experience or that have. So I would just ask your listeners, share this message, share it loudly, share it far and wide.
[00:36:26] Ann Atkinson: If we're going to make a difference for these students, it must be through external pressure. And then we need the legislature to act. They're working on new legislation to hold the university accountable. In Arizona, you know, it's going to take a huge effort to get something that the, the governor will sign into law, ASU knows that, uh, so continue the pressure.
[00:36:48] Ann Atkinson: Please keep sharing this story. And I know
[00:36:50] Leyla Gulen: you're going to be a busy lady in the next few weeks, couple of months, but uh, you're also a very busy lady outside of the university [00:37:00] setting. Uh, what is next for you personally?
[00:37:03] Ann Atkinson: Well, I've dedicated a lot of time to shining the light on the truth, and I've seen how hard it is to speak up against the bureaucracy.
[00:37:11] Ann Atkinson: It's David versus Goliath in every sense here. So, I have a lot that I'm doing regarding this effort. Um, it's going to take a lot more work, and uh, personally I'm making some decisions about just how to proceed. ASU left me without a paycheck, and I have a lot of things happening in life and different business ventures and things, but I have some decisions to make, so I've received some offers.
[00:37:35] Ann Atkinson: Relating to free speech advocacy and activism, that could be a path. I'm a healthcare real estate investor by trade. I put 20 years into that career, so I have some decisions to make, but certainly my sights are still on making a difference here at my alma mater.
[00:37:52] Leyla Gulen: And Atkinson, thank you so much for joining us.
[00:37:55] Ann Atkinson: Thank you, Layla. Such a pleasure.[00:38:00]
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