Grand Canyon Times

The Arizona Board of Education member Jenny Clark said Arizona’s ESA program has a low fraudulent transaction rate, and each transaction made by the ESA is under more scrutiny than any government programs transactions. 

“The last time the Auditor General actually looked into the ESA program, they found less than 1 percent of any potential even Translation Fraudulent transactions,” Clark told host Leyla Gulen on the Grand Canyon Times Podcast. “And of course, when they looked into a lot of those transactions, a lot of times it was a case where a parent had put something on their wrong scholarship card or something like that.”

“Every single one of our transactions requires a receipt,” Jenny Clark said. “We have to say which educational category and for which child it falls into. And when we utilize, let's say a tutor or a therapist, we even have to upload their degrees and credentials.”

This full episode is available on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

Jenny Clark joined the podcast to discuss Governor Hobbs’ proposed regulations of Arizona’s Empowerment Scholarship Account program 

Arizona's Empowerment Scholarship Account provides scholarship money to all Arizona families to help them pursue and afford flexible options for their children's education.

Jenny Clark also is a member of the Arizona Board of Education. 

Jenny Clark is the founder of the ‘Love Your School’ organization, a partner at First Day PR, and advocate for parents and school choice.

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Full, unedited transcript of this episode:

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Grand Canyon Times podcast. I'm your host, Leyla Gulen. In this episode, we welcome our guest, Jenny Clark. Jenny is the founder and CEO of Love Your School, an organization that empowers families to find education that is Conducive to a rich and supportive learning experience for their students.

[00:00:22] She's also a partner at First State PR and a member of the Arizona State Board of Education. Jenny, welcome. Thank you so much for having me. Well, happy new year. And I'm really glad to be talking with you now. And it's perfect timing considering the announcement made this week by Arizona Governor Katie Hobbs.

[00:00:40] As an education advocate, can you catch us up on what the announcement was and your response, which has received tens of thousands of views on Twitter within hours? Yeah, it's kind of funny when you're all of a sudden excited about 2024, you're a period, your kids are going back to school. And then all of a sudden, [00:01:00] 72, 000 plus ESA families, um, get to see this extremely interesting and very unfortunate, to say it nicely, uh, a post from Arizona Governor Katie Hobbs.

[00:01:12] And that, uh, proposal in post essentially said that she is all out going after Arizona's incredibly, uh, successful and wildly popular Empowerment Scholarship Account Program. And in her proposal, she essentially is trying to do several things. Hyperregulate private schools, stifle competition, control which schools families can choose utilizing an ESA.

[00:01:37] The most drastic of all the measures, though, I think, Leila. It's her arguing that current ESA families and any future empowerment scholarship account family would have to return to the public school and do 100 days in public school in order to utilize the scholarship, just really drastic proposal and something that would really hurt Arizona families.

[00:01:59] [00:02:00] Right. Well, she was quoted as saying that it's an unaccountable, unsustainable program that is costing taxpayer dollars. I'm quoting her here. She says that it goes far beyond the intent and that people are spending this money on luxury car driving lessons, ski passes, water park trips. Is any of that true?

[00:02:21] And how are Private schools being held to account for that when it's really on the parents, if they are spending money on those things. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I've been on the ESA program over five years. Of course, Arizona has had the ESA program now for over a decade and every single transaction that we make comes under extremely high scrutiny, uh, more scrutiny than any government program.

[00:02:49] That's why the last time the Auditor General actually looked into the ESA program, they found less than 1 percent of any potential even Translation Fraudulent transactions. And [00:03:00] of course, when they looked into a lot of those transactions, uh, a lot of times it was a case where a parent had put something on their wrong scholarship card or something like that.

[00:03:08] So even less than that. Um, but every single one of our transactions requires a receipt. We have to upload that receipt. We have to say which educational category and for which child it falls into. And when we utilize, let's say a tutor or a therapist, we even have to upload their degrees and credentials.

[00:03:24] So there is more accountability on Arizona's ESA program. And for parents like myself, Then you even see in the public school system and the Arizona public school system does not participate In Arizona's see the money portal if you ask for bank statements, let's say of a superintendent's p card Um, or let's say you want to know how many pencils or pens a school got Good luck getting that information, even if you submit a Freedom of Information Act request.

[00:03:51] What you can see in the Arizona ESA program is incredibly transparent compared to the public school, which is really a black box when it comes to a lot [00:04:00] of finances. So, we completely reject the governor's presentation of how the ESA program works. I think that's what's the most disappointing, though, Layla, is that when we see those types of statements and comments, those of us who are ESA parents, who are just trying to do something better for our kids, uh, stop and go, wow, our own governor doesn't even really understand how this program works.

[00:04:23] it works. Maybe she should talk to some ESA parents. Interesting. Well, and for people who are not familiar with the scholarship program, many parents that use the funds to pay for expenses, like you had mentioned, tuition, tutoring, online education programs, therapies with, for students with special needs, textbooks, other materials and so forth.

[00:04:45] So, can you talk a bit about what kind of an impact that has been having on families who have been taking advantage of this program, and what life would look like if they didn't have this hand up? Yeah, absolutely. And I will try [00:05:00] not to get emotional, Laila, because it never comes across good on a podcast, on an interview.

[00:05:05] But when I even think of my own. Children and our own story where my son was eight years old and he wasn't reading and we went to the public school and we fought for an evaluation and we, you know, finally after this whole process discovered it was dyslexia and they said, we're sorry, we don't have any dyslexia specific programs that can help your child.

[00:05:26] We can give you 30 minutes of reading support a week. We found out about the ESA scholarship at that time and it became a total lifeline for our family. We could not have afforded at the time. to pay for dyslexia remediation therapy if it had not been for the ESA. My story back then I thought was unique until I got into this whole world of school choice and education advocacy and special needs.

[00:05:51] And I kept hearing stories like mine over and over again. And I started telling families about the ESA and how it saved my kids and [00:06:00] afforded them the opportunity to get the type of therapy and tutoring that they needed that they couldn't receive anywhere else. Families are choosing the Empowerment Scholarship.

[00:06:10] for a reason. They're choosing it because the traditional school and educational environment isn't working for their Children. And in a lot of cases that I know we hate to talk about this because we want to say that the public schools serve all Children. Go pull a bunch of special needs families and ask them if they're receiving if their child is receiving the services that they feel like they need to meet their needs in the traditional setting.

[00:06:36] A lot of those families will tell, and that's why they went to Onto an ESA. Of course, Arizona families are taxpayers. So even if you were home educating your child or your child was already in a private school and you were doing everything you can to pay for and afford that you deserve access to your child's education dollars.

[00:06:55] And that's why I was so happy that the ESA program finally [00:07:00] became universal under Governor Doug Ducey in 2022 because we had thousands of families that would come to us at Love Your School for our free school search and advocacy services for parents. And in so many cases, we had to tell them, I'm so sorry, uh, your child does not qualify for an ESA.

[00:07:20] We know that your child needs it because maybe they have a depression or they're being bullied. But under the current guidelines, they don't qualify for an ESA. And all of that changed under Universal. It's been truly remarkable. And that's why 72, 000 children right now are on the scholarship. And I want to talk more about your organization, Love Your School.

[00:07:41] And I also want to talk about some numbers as well. But before we do that, going back to Katie Hobbs plan. So she's proposing that she wants to have more accountability over how the money is spent, including special approval for any voucher purchases above 500. Is that going to be a hardship for families?[00:08:00] 

[00:08:00] Well, this is, this goes back to her just not understanding how the program works. When we saw that, I mean, we just laughed, Layla, because right now that's already the case. I don't care if your pro your purchase is 2 or 2, 000 under the current ESA program. Right now, every single one of those transactions is reviewed and approved.

[00:08:24] So that's already happening. Uh, it's quite embarrassing for Governor Hobbs that she put that in there when that's already the case. Interesting. Well, she also wants to authorize the State Auditor General to review private schools that take taxpayer dollars and to bar them from raising tuition rates above the rate of inflation.

[00:08:42] Now, Arizona House Speaker Ben Toma responded and he says that The governor doesn't understand that the private schools are not party to the ESA. So going back to what I had mentioned earlier, that is there is a distinction between the relationship between parents and the [00:09:00] ESA and schools and tutors and any other educators and the ESA.

[00:09:06] So, so can you talk about that distinction and where there seems to be sort of a fuzzy understanding as to what the relationship actually is? Yes, absolutely. So I think what's happening here is Governor Hobbs and her administration must not be aware of Arizona Supreme Court ruling on the ESA program.

[00:09:26] The case was Niehaus v. Huppenthal, and essentially saying that the recipient of the scholarship is the child. It is not the private school, and it's not the tutor or the vendor. The scholarship flows directly to the family for the use of the child. It is a true scholarship. And that, of course, was determined because there was a question years ago.

[00:09:51] There was a challenge by the teachers unions and other groups on the constitutionality of Arizona's ESA program. And it withstood that constitutional [00:10:00] challenge and those lawsuits. Um, so the money flows not to the school, that would be a traditional voucher, and of course they try to use that word in a derogatory way, but it actually truly and legally, which is most important, is a scholarship because it's flowing to the student.

[00:10:17] So the idea that the governor somehow thinks that she can have control. over private schools is completely beyond the legal reach of the program. It, it just simply wouldn't be allowed and it would be challenged almost immediately, even if something like that was passed. I see. Let's talk about the numbers, shall we?

[00:10:35] Because the Empowerment Scholarship Account Program, is said to be on track to cost a whopping 900 million by the end of this year, this fiscal year. That's a lot of money. And it's, it seems like it's been coming in above what projections were. So it sounds like a lot of money. Is it a lot of money? And what are your thoughts on some of the numbers and the number of students that it [00:11:00] affects that it benefits?

[00:11:01] Well, Arizona right now, it's Spends a lot of money on the public school system. Most people aren't aware that the largest part of Arizona's budget is actually public school education. It's a little over 52% of Arizona's Arizona's budget, and so the ESA program is a small sliver around 2%, and it could go up next year of.

[00:11:27] that entire funding chunk in Arizona. So when I say that the ESA program is actually very tiny compared to what the public school system receives, I mean, I mean it, the numbers don't lie. What happened was some activist organizations like Save Our Schools Arizona, and I think maybe the governor's office wasn't doing their own calculations and research or relying on The JLBC, that's the Joint Legislative Budget Committee that does these projections.

[00:11:53] So, Saber Schools ran with a number that they calculated based on some averages in the [00:12:00] ESA program. And then they took the enrollments and the growth of the ESA program and projected that same growth. Over the entire rest of the year, those of us that actually work in education, work with parents know that the program grows usually in the summer when parents are applying for the fall and then sometimes in the spring if parents are making a switch, so you can't project growth in a different way than the Joint Legislative Budget Committee is projecting the growth number one so that 900 million number is actually quite suspect, but it's easy because that's the number that the governor's office kind of ran with that came from those activists.

[00:12:36] But the bottom line that listeners need to understand is this. The ESA program is not going to bankrupt anything. The budget is absolutely right on track and both Superintendent Foran and Speaker Thoma already released statements looking at the actual budget and where we're at right now. And we actually have a 57 million surplus right now in K 12 [00:13:00] education.

[00:13:00] So again, it's just one of those examples of you feel almost embarrassed, Layla, that they're going out there and they're making these statements. And then we're coming right back and going, Hey guys, uh, we're looking at the actual numbers. actual information from the state. Um, and you guys are just completely off base, but it's important for us to have these conversations because we need to make sure that Arizona families, the Arizona voters, that Arizona taxpayers understand what's really going on and ask those good questions to get to the truth.

[00:13:33] Yeah, I appreciate that. And going back to the auditor's assessment. So the average award, they say, is about 9, 900 per student that the typical universal ESA student receives about 7, 000. But that number jumps significantly for students who are on the spectrum, autism spectrum, who have intellectual disabilities or other disabilities, which could reach anywhere from 30 to 43, [00:14:00] 000.

[00:14:01] So as a parent who's been able to utilize the scholarship herself, would you say that those numbers are in line that they are pretty average? Or do you think that's inflated? And how many parents do you think are spending that money on ski trips and luxury car lessons? I don't even know what a luxury car lesson is.

[00:14:23] So maybe you can enlighten me as to what that is too. We can talk about that too. Because again, you and I, we get this, right? We understand how this works. This is a game of politics. What they're calling a luxury Car lesson is essentially a family teaching their child and utilizing services. That's an electric vehicle, but, you know, luxury car lesson, of course, sounds more shocking.

[00:14:46] But, you know, numbers and the way the numbers work and just for all your listeners to be aware of, too. If you go to the Department of Education's website, it's just azed. gov slash ESA. All of the quarterly reports, um, are [00:15:00] posted right there online. And in those quarterly reports. It shows the literally exact number, the exact number of every single, the exact number of every single ESA award.

[00:15:16] Those awards are calculated down to the cents. And that's because the ESA scholarship is a true formula. So my child's scholarship who is an 8th grader looks different than the child scholarship who's a 6th grader. It's calculated on the district that we live in. It's calculated on their grade, and it's calculated on whether or not they have, um, a disability that multiplies their award and allows them to get a little bit more funding, which also happens in the public school system.

[00:15:45] Um, so the awards mostly are usually between 7, The average is around 9, 500, and that's because there is a significant jump, as you mentioned, Layla, with a child that has, um, multiple disabilities, severe [00:16:00] sensory impairment, or autism, it can go up to 30, 000 plus. But what's crazy is when you think about that number, and you think about that number is only 90 percent and only of the state portion.

[00:16:12] If you are a family, And your child has autism and they're in a public school environment, not only are they getting an additional 10%, that public school is also getting federal IDEA dollars to service your child in the school environment. So that can, that looks more like 55 And a lot of ESA families were going.

[00:16:34] Wait a second. Sure, maybe my child with autism is receiving the services that I think they should be receiving for the amount of money that the public school is getting. That's the case with a lot of families. So on the ESA, there's a taxpayer savings, not only at the state level, but there's a savings broadly at the federal level because we're not receiving.

[00:16:55] Federal Individuals with Disabilities Education Act dollars for our ESA. We're just [00:17:00] getting the state portion. And essentially, ESA families are doing more for our kids, even our students with disabilities, with less dollars than what the public school gets. My sake. And, sorry, I'm a dog with a bone here, but going back to the luxury vehicle, driving less than Yeah, let's go back to that, sorry.

[00:17:17] I gotta, I gotta say this though, because Because you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. What do they want? Do they want you to learn how to drive a fossil fuel powered vehicle , or are they taking those away from us and therefore we need to learn how to drive electric vehicles? I don't understand.

[00:17:34] I, I just, it, it, it feels like it's just any excuse to try to take, take away and take away power from parents in just raising their children in a holistic. Fashion. So, so let's talk about your organization. Love your school. So, so you help parents right now in two states, Arizona and West Virginia. [00:18:00] Yep.

[00:18:00] Arizona and West Virginia. Hopefully more states, Layla, as more states get ESAs online. And more parents are realizing, wow, I actually need some one on one support, which is what we offer at Love Your School, navigating things like homeschooling, ESAs, special education evaluations, school searches. We provide free parent concierge services for families.

[00:18:24] Okay. And why West Virginia? Because Arizona, obviously there you're a resident of Arizona, but West Virginia. Where does West Virginia come in? Great question. So, West Virginia was actually the first state to get universal ESAs, but it didn't, homeschooling families and current private school families didn't qualify.

[00:18:45] So, I guess you could say Arizona really was the first state to get universal, um, but West Virginia passed theirs slightly before, and I had some relationships with folks in West Virginia that were working on that law at the Cardinal Institute. for a couple of [00:19:00] years since I launched Love Your School here.

[00:19:02] And when they passed that bill, I was like, you guys, we have got to come into West Virginia too. We want to help families. We want to help them bridge what we call the imagination gap so that they can see and understand all the beautiful and amazing and innovative things that they can do within ESA. And that's why we launched into West Virginia two years ago now.

[00:19:23] Hopefully launching in a few other states, Iowa, Tennessee, Utah, we'll kind of see what happens, but that's why we launched into West Virginia a couple years ago when they got. Yeah, that's great. That's great. Sorry to interrupt you there, but have you heard from parents who have been using your services, who have joined your organization and what, what has been the feedback?

[00:19:43] Yeah, absolutely. We, if anyone's interested, you can go check out our Instagram. We're pretty big on social media. It's just loveyourschoolaz and we also have loveyourschoolwv. But we, um, shared actually just in this last month of December, several different parent stories. We [00:20:00] always love grabbing those stories, uh, when we can and when parents are willing to share them.

[00:20:03] Because sometimes there's some pretty touchy and challenging issues that they're dealing with with their children. And they talk about the services that we provide, how they were, you know, lost, confused, stressed, maybe being told things about what they could and couldn't do and what their parent rights were, happens a lot.

[00:20:20] We have parents say, Hey, my kid is going to get kicked out, or I heard my kid is going to get held back, or my child's not reading. What can I do? And we take all of those issues. We take all of those questions. We do an intake call, and we say, Tell us your story. Tell us about your child. And then we're gonna tell you how we can help, and we're gonna walk with you every single step of the way.

[00:20:43] So some families, they have a simple question. Maybe it's, How do I apply for an ESA? We send them the website, we send them the links, and we say, let us know if you need help. Other families we journey with for 4, 5, 6 months until they get to the end of whatever process it is that they're sorting out with their child.

[00:20:59] [00:21:00] There is nothing more, uh, stressful than when you're dealing with a situation with your child's education, and we just want to be there to support families. And one thing I'd love to mention on that note, Layla, Especially if you have some listeners that are small business owners. This is something that we've really realized too, is just the impact that dealing with an issue with your child can have on your employees or yourself, your performance in the workplace.

[00:21:24] And so we really want to encourage employers to reach out to us too. We do free presentations. For your employees about what their school choice and education freedom options are, what their parental rights are, even if they're in the public school system, so they can be more informed and more aware. And then we can provide those support services to your employees for free.

[00:21:45] So please reach out to us if you're an employer as well. Oh, that's great. That's great to know. And for anybody who's interested in learning more about your organization or the ESA in general, is there a threshold in which someone has to meet [00:22:00] financially speaking? Is there an income level in which you no longer qualify?

[00:22:06] So not in Arizona, not in Arizona right now or West Virginia, there are other states that pass more limited programs that hopefully will grow or will remove those financial kind of limitations and requirements. Some states have a financial threshold for like the first three years of the program and then it goes away.

[00:22:24] But right now in Arizona, everybody qualifies as long as your child is in kindergarten and at least age five. All the way through high school. Of course, if your child has special needs, they can still be in high school up until age 22, sometimes a little bit older. So, all of those students would qualify.

[00:22:41] So, there is no income cap or income requirements. If you live in Arizona, you qualify. Oh, that's great. And what is next? So, now that Katie Hobbs has come out and she's said her piece, what is next for you and for others who are education advocates? Yeah, absolutely. [00:23:00] Well, the opposition to the ESA programs, both in Arizona and just across the country, I'm just gonna say, it's the gift that keeps on giving.

[00:23:07] And the reason I say that is because ESAs are so incredibly popular in all of the polling, across political parties, across socioeconomic status and ethnic groups. So we know that we have the parents, Uh, on our side. And so when these types of attacks happen, what it really does is serve to mobilize, uh, families to want to engage who maybe have been complacent or families who are new to the program who didn't know, um, that they needed to be active and what they needed to do to become advocates and to mobilize.

[00:23:40] So that's exactly what Love Your School is doing. We have our Love Your School lead and you can sign up for that on our website. And of course, there's a link to that on our Instagram. And that's where we take those families that are going, Hey, I want to do a little more. I want to do a little extra. I want to share my story.

[00:23:56] I want to send an email. I want to plan an event. We invite [00:24:00] you to join us. And to participate with us in protecting not just ESAs, but protecting school choice overall. That includes homeschooling, that includes public school open enrollment, that includes charter schools, private schools, tuition tax credits.

[00:24:14] We support and encourage it all. We're not anti public school at Love Your School, and I will say that, Layla. We support parents, and many of the parents that we work with end up staying in the public school system, and that's great. But we want to make sure that we have all of the school choice and educational freedom opportunities for families in our state and in other states.

[00:24:35] Jenny Clark, you can catch her on the Love Your School podcast twice a month, and you can download it on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Jenny, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks, Lela.